>> rose: welcome to the program, tonight we remember nelson mandela, who died in south africa at age 95, joining me the former mayor of new york, david dinkins, the former editor of time magazine who wrote a biography on nelson mandela, stengel and his long time friend, jerry inzerillo. >> it was his genetic endowment what he learned in that moment of time. the great walter zulu who was really his mentor once told me a lovely story when young nelson mandela who first came to johannesburg to study law walked into zulu ice real estate office in soweto we were just trying to become a mass movement and one day a mass leader walked into my office. >> rose: also part of this program, a conversation with nelson mandela which took place here on this program in 1993. >> and the lesson is that the

method of the people, the method of political method to be used, part determined by the oppressor himself, if the oppres oppressos peaceful means, we will never result to violence. it is when the oppressor in addition to repressive policies uses violence that the oppress have had no alternative but to retaliate by similar forms of action. and therefore, the pains, the blood that was spilled, the responsibility for that lies squarely on the soldiers. >> rose: mandela for the hour, next. >> funding for charlie rose but provided by the following.

>> captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. et it fall, let there be work,b, god bless south africa, thank you. >> rose: the former president of south africa died today, he

was 95, he was affectionately known by those closest to him was a man for all seasons, his life gave meaning to millions, he spent 27 years in prison for his fight for racial equality in south africa, after his release in 1990 he was awarded the nobel peace prize and served as president of south africa for five years. the power of mandela cannot be captured in the snapshot of his achievements, there was also the man himself, he was a quiet man in many ways, but with great power to influence, a father of six who is also the father of a nation, a country, and a philosophy. mandela was born in 1918 in a small village in the eastern cape of south africa, his work campaigning against a ruling national party's apartheid policies grew in the coming years. in 1963, he was brought to stand trial for plotting to over throw the government by violence. he famously said at his trial, i have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal

opportunities. it is an ideal which i hope to live for and to achieve, but if need be, it is an idea for which i am prepared to die. after stepping down as president, he traveled the world and worked tirelessly to advance his agenda of equality and democracy, mandela retired from public life in 2004, stating that he wanted to engage in quiet rea reflection, he is surd by his wife michelle and three children, joining me now to take a measure of this man, are two people who knew nelson mandela very well, rick stengel is a former managing editor of time and coauthor of mandela's autobiography, long walk to freedom and also mandela's way, lessons on life, love and courage, jerry inzerillo is president and ceo of img artist and a close friend of mandela's in a moment we will not only be joined by them but former mayor of new york city, david dinkins. >> let me begin with you, jerry,

you knew nelson mandela for 20 years. >> 22 years. >> rose: godfather to your daughter. >> yes. >> rose: near the father, know the family. >> yes. very well. >> rose: tell me how they are handling this, because they have to have expected it. >> yes. i think it is clear to see that, you know, especially with respect to mrs. michelle he is a very gracious, elegant woman, very dignified woman, you know, mrs. mandela, win any mandela the girls, nani, zuni they have been beautiful through this whole process. i think there is a profound sense of sadness, because when you finally get the word that, you know, the chief is gone, you know, it is overwhelming but i think there is an equal amount of joy and festivity and people celebrating, okay, now this major event has happened, but i think the family is actually very dignified and holding up very well. >> rose: what do we know what is going to happen between now and the actual funeral day? >> yes, there is, you know, there is a number, a series of protocols that have been put in

place by the south african government are executing, obviously on the tenth there will be a huge rally in soweto, you know, archbishop tutu will preside over the funeral, the funeral is on the 15th and i would anticipate it would be one of the largest gatherings of heads of state in, you know, in modern history. you may see more heads of state attend mandela's funeral that john f. kennedy's funeral so it is going to be very elaborate protocol that has been put in, regrettably because of his extended illness the one easy part about that is it was able to widen the logistics because therthere was a lot more time to plan, when he went into the hospital on june 8th if something happened on june 9th or 10th. >> rose: today, bill writing says mandela long wanted a quiet exit, but that when he was in pretoria hospital, there was nothing, it was anything but quiet. but he did get to have that quiet, i assume, when he went

back with them? or not? >> you know,, i think, charlie, he was, many of us, i don't know if i speak for jerry about this, we said our good bu to him a while back, he hasn't been himself for a number of years, and so it was unclear how involved he was in any of these preparations, certainly the man we know would have always said i don't want a big funeral, just take me to where my ancestors are, but i think he is a littler bit disingenuous about that, i think he would be of two minds about that, why such a small funeral? so he -- i don't think he would want this three-ring circus, but i also think what he would approve of is the south african government using the passing of nelson mandela to demonstrate the competence of south africa, the fact that south africa works as a modern democracy, like they did with the world cup, yes, exploit that and i think that is what they are trying to do. >> rose: okay. i want both of you to do the following thing for me. there is the myth of nelson mandela,

there is the reality of nelson mandela, and then is the nelson mandela that you knew and there is the nelson mandela who obviously understood who he was and what he was and had time to reflect on all of this. tell me about the man, just -- >> well, i have been -- i have talked a lot, i have talked to you about -- >> rose: this morning. >> about the myth of him being a st. he hated being called a saint, and he wasn't a saint. he wasn't a saint for all kind of reasons, in terms of his own private behavior, which doesn't even matter, but he wasn't a saint because he was ultimaly a pragmatic politician. he, you know, people compare him to gandhi, people compare him to martin luther king, he said to me, he said, for those men, nonviolence was a principle. for me, nonviolence was a tactic. i used it as long as it was successful, but when it stopped being successful, i turned the anc into a military armed wing because my plate goal, my

overriding principle was premium for my people and justice for my people and anything that would get me there was what road i would take, that's a pragmatist, a pragmatic politician, not a saint. >> rose: jerry? >> yes, you know, i agree, rick is heartfelt on that because he was very pragmatic but one of my reflect shunls after 20 plus years is how real he was. i mean, you know, if you saw him flirtatious or joyful or festive or playful, it was that way when you were behind the scenes or when you were in front of the camera. but wow know, when he went out on any public appearance, howie was being, how he was being projected, how he was moving, i will tell you a very interesting story when we were back back as a family to see him right at towards the end, when the world cup was there. we walked into have just a little personal time with him and he said to me, how did we do? and that is an amazing comment, because he was so interested in how the country

reflected around the world, how the image reflected, and but, you know, i would talk to him about, there was a lot of time inbetween protocols and inbetween visits where you are hanging out, four or five hours at a time and i would say what was it like when you were alone what did you think about? and he could be very sweet, very genuine and very insightful. >> rose: and you said he had the right touch with whether you were -- whether you were for or not for. >> yes, the clear thing and, you know, there is several interviews of what the principal thing rob and i missed in prison when you said you have been here so many years what do you miss? you know, it was newspapers, it was type of food, it was type of clothing but the number one thing all the prisoners said they missed was the laughterer, laughter of children so when he got out of prison, and started seeing the way his new life was hevolving i mean he was just joyful and the nelson mandela children's fund was never work

for him. he -- all of those appearances and, you know, i have been with him many, many times in that, he just loved children, he loved people, i mean, he would walk out of the house with the security detail, they would be furious with him, let's go for a walk and ring people's door bells and they would open the door and he would say, hi, i am nelson mandela. now i knew him so long ago when he used to do that and people didn't know who he was when he range the doorbell, we would go to these little villages. >> rose: this is what year? >> this was in '92 and '93. >> rose: right. >> so when we stayed in the -- outside of mantata where he built his house we would take these long early morning walks, 4:30, 5:00 a.m. and walk to different villages and people did not know who he was. they thought he was a visiting chief or ahead man, i mean it was just fantastic and he loved that. he couldn't love it more when someone actually didn't recognize him and to bear jerry out i think he is actually

better with four years olds than 94-year-olds, he loved children, and he loved holding them and there is that wonderful story that not many people know on the day of his release, february 11th, after he walked through the gates, which we all saw he was supposed to give a speech in the grand parade, the car got lost and he ended up elsewhere and how do we get to downtown cape town and white woman with a pram, you know, wheeling her baby along this sidewalk, and the car door opened, nelson mandela popped out, the day of his release and he turned to her and said i am nelson mandela may i hold your baby? and he took this infant in some -- adorable little girl in his arms and then asked her directions how to get to the grand parade, but he had not held a baby in 27 years. >> rose: and. >> and you know it is interesting because years later he wanted to go on vacation but he wanted to go where he and the family could just be quiet and not be nelson mandela, and he

went to saint jerome, and we got a call that night and it is a very emotional call and the family is very excited because it is the first time he had ever set foot in the ocean, put his foot in the ocean. >> rose: and he is like 70 something years old. >> right. and unimaginable amount of years, like 40 years he had never been in the ocean and the sensation and, you know, by that time his legs, you know, were hard to move and stuff like that, and he was just so boyish issue with the fact that he got to walk with the ocean. >> rose: nobody knows what it is like to be imprisoned and have none of those things that we consider just part of life, the ocean being able to hold a baby, did history, did he choose history .. or did history choose him? >> i think more than most, i mean, i am a big believe never the english expression which is a lovely expression, come at the moment, come at the man, history makes the man when we need somebody, they come forward, but

he more than most combined both, it was his genetic endowment, what he learned in that moment in time. the great walter zulu which was his mentor told me this lovely story when young mandela who first came to johannesburg to study law walked into walter zulu's real estate office in soweto, walter said to me, we were just trying to become a mass movement, and then one day a mass leader walked into my office. >> rose: he knew it? >> he knew it, he was tall, he was handsome and one of the things walter always said, that man could smile, people didn't smile in the fifties, politicians you lo politicians pictures from the fifties nobody is smiling, nelson mandela is beaming, he was the head of ahead of his time and walter recognized it. >> rose: yes. what would he talk about? >> you know, it is very interesting because you could lead him in certain directions, and when you got to a point of intimacy with him where he was used to you being around and

trusted you, because, you know, he was very, very principled if you talked out of turn or gossiped or something like that, you could bet that the finger was going to be waved at you. but you could say to him, were you lonely? you know, what did you miss? and then what happened is that he said, you know, sometimes i feel more lonely now than i did when he as in robin island, because, you know, he would work .. all day long and plenty of times we would go back to the house and, you know, or he would go to the house to pick him up and sitting alone in the chair, but, you know, it was a great, great responsibility, but i do want to say that when he first got out of prison he had to go to a dinner one night and one of his friends picked him up in the car and had to drive him to a dinner, and -- but realized he had no money, so he stopped with mandela and went over to an atm and put the card in and mandela saw cash coming out of a wall,

but mandela didn't know, he didn't know what an atm was, and he said to the guy who took him, what was that? you know, what was that? >> put a card in and bring money out and it was a very cute thing because that at his inauguration we had the privilege of doing the heads of state luncheon and i thought it would be clever to take that picture that everybody is showing of him swearing in on the day and i held open three photo labs in pretoria and we had 1,500 copies of this made, and after we pulled the salad course and served the soup course, we had a beautiful gold, and white embossed thing saying thank you for attending the first democratically free presidential inauguration, and we put the picture in. but when i went to show it to medeva it was only a few minutes at 4:00 and he looked at it like a boy, astonished, really sweet. >> rose: how did you become

his coauthor of his autobiography, rick? >> i had written a book about south africa and in 1990 called january sun, and when little brown who signed up mandela to do his autobiography was looking for into someone to write it bill film lips who was then editor in chief and then became ed for of the book had read january sun and asked me if i would do it and of course it was an offer i couldn't refuse, no one could refuse it and it was just the most extraordinary experience. >> rose: how do you think he, what do you think he would like for us to be talking about now .. the? >> well, i think he would like us to be talking about how south africa can grow and progress and evolve after he is gone, and that he had set the template for democratic, nonracial capitalistic country that will thrive in the 21st century.

i think that is what he would like us to talk about. one of the things i noticed in all the interviews we did, he was self-consciously modest, but what i would say, when you did this, and he would say, no, richard, it was we, the anc but when i would say when the anc did this, he would say, no, richard, that was me, so i think he is a little bit ambivalent so he would love us to be talking about him in the referential, warm and loving way we are but i think he, remember, you know,, the struggle is my life, he said, and he wanted to make sure his country and his people were provided for. >> rose: south africa. >> your wife is out african. >> both from cape town. >> rose: wow. how did you begin to know him and work with him? >> i got to meet him on his extraordinary historic visit to new york and, you know, being ceo of the hotels at the time i helped out on the logistics and our beloved friend, robert de niro and his generosity, wanted

a major, did one of the major parties and receptions when he opened up now the famous trifecta bar and grill we became acquainted and started talking, he said to me, before i go home to south africa, is there any way you can introduce me to elizabeth taylor? and i didn't know elizabeth taylor but i knew michael jackson so i called michael jack son and i do not elizabeth taylor but can we introduce him when he goes to los angeles and michael says, yes. so he calls me back a few minutes later and he says, yes, elizabeth taylor would be very happy to meet mr. mandela, but on the condition that i come. so i said, michael, i can't, i can't promise that, i mean, i will ask mr. mandela. so i go to him and i say look, i don't really know elizabeth taylor buzz michael jackson does but he says if she comes he would like to accompany her and he said would be fine, who is

michael jackson? you can see him. >> jerry, he later told me the story of meeting elizabeth taylor and again this is nelson mandela, man, can you imagine, me, nelson mandela, meeting elizabeth taylor. yes, right. you know, when we were trying to change the image of south africa to come out of the, you know, apartheid era, one of the tactics that we wanted to use was to show all of the beautiful visualizations of south africa by getting on tv in many countries around the world. so we signed a five-year contract to do ms. world pageants at sun city because we would get into all of those television markets and we could show the animals and the culture and the food and all positive reinforce this one of the a favorite things when he would meet the 90 girls each year and then after the second year, when, you know, when the tension of is the logistics working we played a little joke on him, because we asked all the girls to wear bright colored lipstick and we have the picture he had

like 40 kisses on his face with all different colors lipstick. >> rose: we are pleased to have joining us the honorable david dinkins, former mayor of new york city. >> thank you, good to be with you. >> rose: remember nelson mandela when you first met him, what your relationship was, what he meant to you. >> well, not unlike the rest of the world, pretty much i was a big fan, and bill worked with me to help get me elected mayor and he was a deputy mayor and he was insistent we could get nelson mandela to come to new york, this is june of 1990, and i said, well, terrific if we can do it. but this was the first place to which he came outside of south africa was to the united states and he might well have gone to washington or atlanta, a lot of other place scbloos london.

>> >> rose: london. >> right. but we were fortunate. he stayed here and he -- and when he stayed with my bride and me in gracie mansion. >> rose: he was your overnight guest. >> more than -- it was almost a week. (laughter.) >> and he is a remarkable human being, the most amazing thing is that total absence of bitterness. >> rose: really? .. >> and he was the same whether playing with grandchildren, we had a granddaughter at that time, i think she was born in february and this was june, she is a little thing, and he was saying then or whether being questioned by ted koppel. >> rose: on nightline. >> nightline. ted koppel leaned in and he said about the communists and mediva, well they were they are the only

ones that helped us, next questions, move on. >> rose: there were instances like that do you think there was no bitterness or he realized he couldn't be bitter or he couldn't let bitterness get in his way? >> i have heard it said that he has claimed that if you were going to continue to be bitter then you are still in jail. you have imprisoned yourself. >> have you heard him say that? >> yes. and i think, mr. mayor, it would be hard to imagine that he would be without bitterness and without anger, he understood he could never demonstrate that. he could never show that. he could never show that to white south africans which to me is what made him great and if he didn't feel it at all he would have been less great, the fact he felt it and realized he was able to contain it. >> rose: yes, yes. what do you think his biggest, what do you think his biggest strengths were? i mean he went through 27 years in prison. >> patience. >> rose: well said. patience and yet at the same

time he used that time to write. >> yes. and enjoyed writing. >> and enjoyed writing, yes. >> well, when he came here among the things he wanted to do was to meet some of those persons who had been a part of the artisan athletes against apartheid and i have a photograph of nelson mandela and sugar ray and guys like that, you know he was a boxer, of course. >> rose: i do know, i know. tell me about that, the boxing. >> he took up boxing after he came to johannesburg as a young man and one of the reasons was, because he was very fit and he liked being fit and boxers in those days, this is before anybody ever heard of jogging, boxers were the only people who actually ran, and he liked running early in the morning. everybody who i interviewed for the book said he actually wasn't that great of a boxer, he was

very fit and he just liked the training and he liked the discipline of it. >> rose: let's talk about the women in his life. first wife, ben win any and then michelle. first wife. >> evelyn. >> rose: evelyn. who was she? >> rick could probably speak better to than than i can. >> evelyn macy was her name and also from the transcribe, from a very small family .. he was a very young man, she was very young and what happened was that -- and they had three children quite quickly, lived in soweto and then as he started to become political she started becoming more religious, i think she was a seventh day adventist and he realized, he even said this to me many years later and said this about his mother as well i was trying to bring a revolution to my country and educate my own people about democracy and

freedom and i hadn't been able to do that to my wife or my mother and he felt that was a lack, and they just went their separate ways and it was a sad situation. >> rose: and then there was. >> then he met win any, and when you see pictures of when any, just a gorgeous woman, full of strength and pride and. >> rose: she was an activist? >> an activist in her own right and what happened was at that particular moment in time, the two of them just clicked and became such an indelible force but with the celebration of all the documentation on mandela being imprisoned 27 years, you know, a lot of times credit is not given to what winney had to endure because those early years of prison, they would go up to the house 2:00 o'clock in the morning and shake her down, strip search her, i.an those two girls were 3 and 1, four and two, and, you know, a lot of people don't remember that you

talk about courage and strength, i mean she was in solitary confinement for 18 months, winny, but after 27 years in prison, where you grow apart, when he came out, the public pressure is on him as a person, because everybody wanted a piece of him, you know, it was -- it had to be powerfully lonely for both of them individually, and i think to this day there is a very deep love between the two of them. you know, she is a great lady. but, you know, then, all of a sudden he is now, 79, 80 and the wedding comes with mrs. michelle, and he was like a boy again, he was very jubilant over that. >> rose: she was perfect for him. >> perfect. >> rose: the widow of the president of mozambique. >> correct. >> rose: did you meet her? >> oh, yes. in fact, i was embarrassed because the first time i met her i didn't realize i had met her

before. > with her husband. >> and i said something stupid, and it was like, we have met before, she was very gracious, though, and very sweet. but, boy, what an amazing man, mandela is, i -- every year his birthday is i think the 18th of july and mine is the tenth, same as arthur ash but i am not suggesting that means anything. >> rose: both are brilliant at tennis. >> so each year i would send him a message, happy birthday medied va when you are 109 i will be 100 and we will meet and have a drink, i won't get to do that anymore. >> yes. quite sad. >> rose: when was the last time you saw him? >> oh, i guess it has been six, seven years, maybe. >> i was part of tony o'reilly's

advisory group. >> rose: tony o'reilly the irish businessman, heinz 57. >> right. exactly. >> rose: heinz. >> we used to go annually. we had two meetings, one in soutsouth after, one in south aa in february and one in ireland. and usually when we were in south africa, we would get to meet with mediba and later with tabo and like that, and on those occasions, pardon me, i got to see him. >> rose: was he disappointed obviously in tapa? who was his former chief of staff number 2, wasn't he? >> there is a whole interesting tale there. taba's father was on robin island, and i guess we can say it now, govan and mandela never got along, and it was one of the few people that he actually, i remember him saying some things

that were not as wonderfully flattering, a little bit unmandela like, but he forged a bond with tabo and remember when he came out of prison there were two groups in the anc, there were the people who had stayed in south africa. >> rose: right. >> like ramiposa who ran the mine workers union and chris hani, great men and the exiles, so-called exiles who were in the old mainstream of the anc, and mandela's advisors, walter zulu and others all over the old exile group to come to power, i mean, mandela i think actually favored the interior people, and he wasn't -- and he was not an authoritarian ruler even when the anc he was often out voted by his comrades and i think he was out voted there too. >> rose: the last time you saw him? >> last year, and we had a very

-- >> rose: remembering your daughter is the god, he is the godfather of your daughter. >> yes. and he named her zacadi, which is a very sweet name because when, you know, he was very close with prudence and prudence being a very prominent south african journalist so when we kind of went up to him and said, look, we are a couple now he looked at us like what have the two of you been up to? and then we said to him, you know we would love to have your blessing if you would be our best man and he said it entitled me a child. so you get me a baby. you get with it and get me a baby but it took us nine years to have the baby so when the baby arrived he was so excited he was on vacation in morocco and he calls up and he says, i have named you a child. okay. you know, you want to tell the boss? she is here. what have you named her. >> zacadi, that is pretty what does it mean. >> it means the one who took a long time to come because it

took nine years and he says now when she sees me she will see i am an old feeble man and start crying. so we saw him, we saw him a year ago. >> rose: yes. last time i saw him was when he came to new york, it was a wonderful meeting you had something to do with muhammad ali. >> yes. >> and to see the two of them together. >> yes. it was a very special night, i was visiting with him up at the waldorf and professor james hers well is there and he is now deceased, god rest his soul, and he was in -- he was in rocky shape even then, and he said, he said i have a night, do you think i could see some of my trend before i go? and robert de niro who, you know, the celebrated actor is still, people don't understand how generous he is and what a great philanthropist he is but he hosted mandela at the request of the -- our great mayor here when he first came at the tribeca as part of the june visit and i

said bob look you started it with us you want to end it with us? and on may 5th evening when we were together, 2005, it really was a very sweet night and we reenacted the boxing picture that ali and him that came from the century plaza. >> rose: i almost got one of those. >> yes, it was a very sweet night. >> rose: thank you, jerry. >> thank you. >> rose: thank you, rick. >> on one occasion i was on the dais of the luncheon, seated next to muhammad ali and when he spoke, he said of the honoree, he said, service is a rent you pay for space on earth, and i am so moved by that i wrote it down and i had him sign it and i was going to frame it with a picture but i always use it now when i speak at a funeral or a memorial and it fits nelson mandela so well, service to others is the rent you pay for space on earth, and i usually end it by saying

the decedent has departed us paid in full, him or her not look down and find any of us in arrears. >> rose: thank you as well mayor. >>s it is good to see you my friend. >> rose: thank you. back in a moment, a conversation with nelson mandela. the africans want the franchise on the basis of one man, one voigt, they want political independence. >> do you see africans being able to develop in this country without the europeans being pushed out? >> we have a made it very clear in our policy that south africa is a country of many racing racing, races, there are rooms for all races in this country. >> rose: we look back at an interview i did with nelson mandela 1993, 20 years ago. >> help us understand what it was like for you and how does a man maintain his strength, his

belief, his integrity on and island where he has been sentenced to life in prison? >> well, there is nothing as inspiring as to know the ideas for which you have sacrificed will triumph. one of the things tha that willw our work throughout, 24 hours a day was the fact that the ideas of liberation were much alive, that kind of people inside the country, that is the international community, irrespective of what the government that is empowering a country, whether it was liberalism or conservative,

fully supported our struggle, that was a source of tremendous inspiration, and it kept the morale of all of us very high, and, therefore, we were very strengthened inside prison because of the knowledge that our incarceration was not in vain, and that the possibility of us coming back to play our part as part of a greater team, was always a rosie possibility, and this sustained us, and also, to share these experiences with a man who was with me in prison, some of whom you have cited was

a tremendous thing. >> rose: how about your vanity in prison? and i mean that with great respect, the garden. what was that for you? having your garden? >> give us a sense of being in prison with the goals that you had, with the values you had, with the inspiration of the fight underway by those outside of prison and the battles to come, what did a small thing like a garden mean for you? >> well, there were moments when one doubted whether he had done the correct thing by abandoning your wife, your children and literally throwing them to the

wolves. that was a constant concern on our part, to say my wife was humiliated, hounded by the security police, threatening employers and forcing them to dismiss the wives. my children being babies, being hounded when they went to colored school or indian school, and the authorities compelled to dismiss them, so that they could go to an african school, and the fact that i was not there to protect my family, to guide my children. >> rose: it is a terrible thing. >> it is a terrible thing, indeed. but after agonizing over this, in the end, i never -- i felt i

had done the right thing and if i was released and again had the opportunity to do what i did, i would do it again, but of course it was necessary for us to occupy ourselves during the day, doing the type of things that you like, reading. >> rose: what did you read? >> study. and of course government, creating life, see it grow, and maturing, and to beautiful vegetables, that was an experience which elevated one, and as far as reading is concerned, i liked reading political works, biographies, and novels.

i liked to enjoy them. >> rose: let me come back to the garden before i go to the books. with respect to the garden, were you good at it? >> well, i was a student. and at college, it was a task of the students to go and work in some garden for the members of the staff, and i was fortunate enough to be able to work for members of the staff who had gardens, and i looked after their gardens, and i in any case when i was there, i had the opportunity to read works on garden dengue, gardening, and dealing with famine .. and i became, therefore, quite informed as far as farming is

concerned. >> rose: but primarily for vegetables? >> primarily for vegetables. >> rose: and what vegetables? >> well, i had a variety of vegetables, like tomatoes. >> rose: yes. >> onions. >> rose: could you eat them? they allowed you to keep them? >> egg fruit. strawberries. and i tried peanuts but i was not successful. >> rose: why not? >> well, i didn't have, you know, the technique of planting them and cultivating them. >> rose: but you had fertilizer and yo you had all of the things you needed? >> oh, yes. >> rose: did boxing make a difference, the fact you had been an amateur boxer? >> well, i liked boxing, it taught me discipline. >> rose: that is is what you need. >> it taught me discipline, how

to go forward, and how to -- retreat when the opposition is so strong i could not overcome it, and how to flank problems. >> rose: that sound like the lessons of either political or military warfare. went to flank, went to watch your flank, when to go forward, when to retreat, when to go on offensive, when to go on defensive, when to negotiate. >> the basic principles of boxing as a sport, you must even before you actually put on the gloves, you must be taught the basic rules of the game, and to be able to advance, to go forward, you can put out your

enemy, your opponent, you must do so. but when, in fighting, your rival is superior, you stay out and you keep him away, and you sit around, you concentrate on the punches and wear him down and you have to stand to your enemy even before you go to the ring, but even more important, study him in the ring, and don't take things for granted. >> rose: and don't take your eyes off of where his hand are? >> well, absolutely, you must concentrate. so what i said are the basic rules of the sport, of course, they are it is basic rule of the military and so on. >> rose: and so, therefore, what is your posture now in terms of offensive, defensive? you obviously defeated your opponent or are you in the 13th

round or the 14th round, where are you using the boxing metaphor? >> no. we are negotiating and when you are negotiating, in regard to your country, you are not thinking of victory. >> rose: n novick tri? >> you are not thinking of victory for yourself, you don't want your opponent to be a loser. you are thinking what is a victory for the people as a whole, south africans must be the victim tors, not of the anc, not of the leader of the anc but the people of sout south africa, therefore, i would hesitate to see any political party weakened. i want all the political parties involved in the negotiation to be strong, so as to bring their

constituencies to the forward position so that we could speak with one voice on the fundamental question of building a new south africa. you don't in negotiation want the type of victory where you are in a boxing match. >> rose: do you love your country more than you love anything? >> well, that is difficult. i have got a family and i have got children. >> rose: yes but it is almost like you are married to your country and destiny has made this marriage and you have no choice. >> it is inconceivable for me to love anybody more than my children and my grandchildren. in fact, that is what they are saying to me today. my daughter, i grow up without a father.

my father was in prison. but i obtained the hope that one day he will come back. and a father who loves their children, i stopped from being a orphan during my father's lifetime but my father came out, he has now become the father of my nation. i still have no father. i have got a grandson who is four in september. i asked him, on his birthday, what do you want, little boy, for you? >> he said i want a motorcar. i said, let's go to the shops. we got a car, he was holding my hand, my left hand, and we went to the shop, which sells motor cars, but as we walked in, crowds were all around and they

shook my hands, now,, i said to him, well, can you hold his hand, he said no, he held his hand, because he saw me greeting other people with this hand, i stopped being his grandfather. i was now a grandfather of so many people he did not know. he was so upset, that even when we entered the shop with the vehicles, with motors he was no longer interested. that is a type of experience we were having. a grandfather who is a grandfather not of my grandchild but of the people around. it is a very painful experience. but nevertheless, we have to

commit ourselves completely to the organization, and to try to hope that your children and grandchildren will understand. >> rose: the biggest change for you has been for those children you didn't have time for and now your family is as large as a nation. >> that is correct. and this is an experience, of course, which affects thousand of african fighters, not only in the african national congress, but in other formations, political formations as well. >> rose: is it hard not to have a wife with you? >> well, to be with your wife is a tremendous source of comfort and inspiration, but we have to adjust to the situation. >> rose: how painful was it?

>> well, i woul would i would pr to talk very little about domestic matters, but she is a woman who supported me when hard times were knocking at my door and one of the difficult decisions to make was to leave, joint household and go establish myself. >> rose: difficult because of the sacrifices she had made during your imprison.? >> i would repeat that i would prefer that we would leave those issues aside, but it is correct that she supported me very strongly when i was in prison. >> rose: just one last question on that because it is such an issue. how do you view her today? >> well, she is entitled to have

political views. >> rose: which is? >> well, whatever views she has, she is entitled, and we -- once we accept the democratic process we must accept its full indications. people are entitled to have their own views, whatever i think of them. >> rose: you have at this moment no reservation or indecision along with the counsel you have taken with your colleagues that the decisions made by you and them are right for south africa? the sacrifices, the toll, the price you have paid, the blood that has been spilled was necessary, painful, but necessary?

>> yes? >> absolutely. we had an organization which from its foundation committed itself to building a nation, and -- through peaceful, nonviolent and disciplined struggle. we were forced to resort to arms by the regime, and the lesson of history is that the masses -- the method of the people, the method of political action which they used are determined by the oppressor himself. if the oppressor uses peaceful means we would never result to violence. it is when the oppressor in

addition to its repressive policies uses violence that the oppress have had no alternative but to retaliate by similar forms of action. and, that, therefore, the pains the blood that was spilled is, and the responsibility for that lies squarely on the soldiers of the regime. >> rose: but not, at the same time, you and the anc have forthrightly acknowledged violence that has existed in anc camps as well. >> we have perhaps the only organization in africa and possible in the world that has had the courage and the honesty to take the public into confidence. >> rose: that's true. >> to say we -- on the

commission, composed of a formal american judge a distinguished lawyer from zimbabwe, and that prominent businessmen in south africa who was trained in the united states here, we set up that independent commission because we wanted to get to the bottom of this affair, and when they gave that report they had a finding and recommendation which proved that and to the public and said to them, these are the findings of the commission. these are the recommendations. hardly any organization in our country has done that. mr. declerk appointed a mission to allegations, who has been appointed .. it is a on the question of violence. when that report had reached him, it did,

he did not have the courage to publish it, to take the, to take the public into confidence. he has suppressed it. we have done something different. >> rose: they say we have to cut and i will leave with this one last notion. april 27, 1994, free elections, black africans in south africa will express for the first time their political will. will that be the happiest day of your life? >> yes and no. yes, because as i have already said that is a day of liberation. >> rose: yes. >> when the people of south africa will be able to elect a government of their own choice,

when they take their destiny into their hands and are able to run their own lives. no, because if it is going to be more difficult to maintain the democracy than it was to bring it into reality. there are going to be very awesome challenges and which are going to test the ability of those who are leading the democratic process in this country. >> rose: nelson mandela perhaps the most admired man in the world died in south africa, age 95. >>

captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

this is night by business report with tyler mathisen and susie gharib brought to you in part by. >> thestreet.com, up to the minute stock market news and in depth analysis. our quant rating service provides objective independent ratings daily on over 4300 stocks. learn more at the street.com/nbr. jobs jolt, good news for main street, is good news on wall street. stocks jump on a strong employment report, putting the ball scarily in the fed's hands. >> making the comeback, what small lenders are doing to grab new mortgage business becoming big winners as they thrive. and market monitor, our guest tonight tells investors to go global for the best returns next year. all that and more tonight on nig"nightly busins